Second Wind Leadership Podcast
The Second Wind Leadership Podcast is the perfect resource for anyone who wants to take their leadership skills to the next level. Whether you're a seasoned leader or just starting out, this podcast is designed to help you renew your heart, mind, and soul so that you can lead and live differently. Hosted by James Wilson Jr., a campus pastor and leadership student, this podcast features practical tips and engaging stories from everyday leaders who have found success in different arenas. You can expect new episodes every 2nd-4th Tuesday of the month, and James is always happy to answer any questions you may have. So, if you're looking for a second wind in your leadership journey, be sure to tune in and visit www.jameswilsonjr.com for more information.
Second Wind Leadership Podcast
Dr. Lesley Francisco McClendon: Pursuing Your Dream, Lessons in Leadership and Authenticity
Can you imagine knowing your life's calling at just three years old? Dr. Lesley Francisco McClendon, the senior pastor of C3 in Hampton, Virginia, did just that. Join us for an inspiring conversation as Lesley shares her powerful journey in ministry, heart for business, her passion for preaching, and her perseverance through challenges as a woman in a predominantly male space.
Lesley delves into the importance of navigating tradition and innovation in ministry while embracing leadership across generations. We also explore the unique challenges of this current generation of leaders and the need for mentorship, legacy, and collaboration within the community. As we learn from Lesley's inspiring journey, we gain valuable insights into leadership, authenticity, and the power of staying true to our calling.
Finally, Lesley shares her empowering experiences and encourages others to seek out mentors and role models who can offer wisdom and guidance. Discover the importance of staying authentic and using one's unique strengths to lead with integrity. Don't miss this incredible conversation that will not only inspire you but also provide you with practical advice on leadership, authenticity, and the power of pursuing your dreams.
Check out more with Dr. Lesley Francisco McClendon at lesleymcclendon.com.
Register now for Herstoric Night: Empowering Women to Lead with Authenticity and Confidence https://bit.ly/herstoricnight1.
You can learn more about me at www.jameswilsonjr.com Or Follow me on instagram or facebook @jwiljr.
Now let's go. What's up, y'all? Welcome back to the second-win leadership podcast. This is your host, james Wilson. I'm excited today, and we've had so many technical difficulties, so I know that this is going to be probably one of the best episodes we've ever recorded on this podcast. But I've got a really, really special guest. Her name is Dr Leslie Francisco McClendon, and you'll hear her titles and all the things she does in just a couple of minutes. But I'm excited to have this podcast because we've been waiting for some years to get it done. But one of the things that we focus on is the everyday leader, just renewing their hope, their faith in leadership. And so, leslie, we talked again years ago and I was just fascinated by your story, by your journey, and I really just wanted the world to hear it as well. So if you could tell us a little bit about yourself, and then we'll dive in, we've got some questions, but I also want to just make sure that we pull out what we need to pull out. So tell us a little bit about yourself.
Speaker 2:All right. Well, hey everybody, thank you so much for having me on this podcast. I am Dr Leslie Francisco McClendon. I currently serve as a senior pastor of C3 in Hampton Virginia. I am a wife of eight years May 23rd. So my husband, caleb McClendon, and through that we have one child, jackson, and he is amazing, five and energetic and all over the place, but he's a really great guy. So I have been in ministry for a long time. I try to say what is the truest answer because I've seen some people I'm 34, who are like 34, and they'll be like I've been in ministry for 28 years Like how?
Speaker 2:I know And part of me is like should I do that part of the story too, just thinking about it and telling my story? I've always known that I was going to be in ministry. When I was three years old, i told my parents when I grew up I want to be a preaching pastor. When I was five, my maternal grandmother passed away and at her funeral there was an older lady sitting towards the back of the congregation. I remember going up to her and I said that's my grandma up there. her time is up. And I said your time is coming one day. Do you know the Lord Jesus, come on In evangelist.
Speaker 2:as a little kid, i preached my first sermon at seven, really got serious about ministry. I'm really preaching around 15. At 18, i went to Oral Roberts University, accepted my call to ministry, got ordained at 21. Through that, went matriculated, through grad school, got my doctoral degree, was a youth pastor, assistant pastor, eventually became senior pastor in 2020. And yeah, ministry is not just something. well, some people will be like oh, you know, the Lord just had to pull me and call me and all of that. Not just that. I didn't have some of those experiences, but I always knew that this was going to be a part of my story And, as a matter of fact, you can talk to people I've gone to elementary school, with middle school, with high school, whatever, and they'll say Leslie is one of the few people who actually stuck it out with what and who she said she wanted to be.
Speaker 1:So stay right there. That's fascinating, and so I did give you some questions, but I also sometimes I like to take creative liberty, because you said that your classmates, the folks who knew you, said that Leslie was someone who decided to stick it out with what she wanted to do. Tell me more about that. Like that feels like. when you said that, that felt like that was a sticking point for you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely So. I think it just stuck with me ever since I was young. I think a big part of that is my family, so I'm a third generation pastor. My grandparents found it or started the church that I currently pastor. Now, and for me, with my family being in ministry, integrity was really big, and so we never at the dinner table talked about the saints, right?
Speaker 2:Wow So you have a lot of people, especially PKS, who hate ministry because they saw one thing and then they lived out another thing. But for me it was always consistent across the board, and so when I saw that I thought, well, this is something that I can really live into. And so that's not to say that it didn't have its fair share of challenges. I'll be honest in growing up I had a very supportive community, but it wasn't until I went to undergrad in Oklahoma where I realized that there were some people who did not believe in women in ministry. I didn't really experience a lot of that growing up.
Speaker 2:I'm sure it was here I mean, we live in Virginia, like some people are anti, but I remember going to an open house and my professors were great. But one of the students in my program said what are you doing here? Don't you know that God never called a woman to preach? You're in danger of hellfire. To which I said well, i might just see you there. That's probably not the right thing to say, but yeah.
Speaker 2:So in my program I majored in local church ministries or pastoral Christian ministries, and my concentration was local church pastor, and I was one of three females, and by the time it came to the end, i was the only one who graduated. They left the other two. One went to youth, another went to missions or church administration, because these are, quote unquote, acceptable roles for women in ministry. And I think I hold on to my authenticity so tightly because there was a moment where, after being an undergrad for about 18 months, it started weighing on me Like wow, did God really call me to preach? You know, people are throwing these scriptures at me And I wrestled with that And I said this is ghetto, i don't have time for this.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I remember going to the office to find a different syllabus and I said, drop it, i'm going to major in communications. And so that's always been my backup plan, that if ministry does not work out for me, i said I'm going to be a news anchor, i want to be a professional interviewer, like podcasting, i love this type of stuff. And so I had that backup plan. And I remember when I went back to the library to start studying for a paper I had due, i felt the Holy Spirit say who called you? Was it Paul or was it me? Right, and I remember because we always say well, paul says I suffer, not a woman to teach.
Speaker 2:And it wasn't until after a while I thought wait a minute. Paul didn't give me my ordination papers, paul didn't credential me. It's through Christ, and so that statement is something that has resonated with me to this day. And whenever feelings of anxiety or apprehension, or I go into spaces where maybe I could be perceived as a quote, unquote, token or the only woman, i remember it was Jesus who called you, not Paul. Walking your authority, walking your boldness, walking your identity as a daughter of God. And you've got this.
Speaker 1:That's so fascinating And that was one of the reasons. for years I've wanted to make sure we had this conversation, because you, leslie, are operating in a space here where we are in the 757. That I honestly have not. I probably, in my ministry career hasn't been as extensive as yours because you, legitimately, have been in ministry all your life 28 years.
Speaker 1:That's real. But one of the things that I think about is I don't. I'm obviously black and I you know there's things about that Like, okay, here's this black man in ministry leading this, leading that, but you now have a different lens that you see the world from that you are black woman, stepping into a predominantly male space and a predominantly white male space. Just walk me through some of that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's tough because, you know, i feel this sense of call, but at the same time, i have to not only fight do I really belong here? not necessarily from my perceptions, but from the perceptions of others. And then I also wrestle with this unicorn, or tokenism in a sense. I remember going to a conference in California in my mid-20s and there was a white pastor of a large church and he told my father, who was the senior pastor at the time. He said hey, i would give anything if you let me get your daughter on staff. She's young, she's black, you know a female, and we just don't see that Like. And my dad was like, no, you can't have her.
Speaker 2:But wrestling with that part of being solely committed to my craft and wanting to be excellent in every single thing that I do, and other people taking notice and saying, well, how do I get you on my team to use that to my advantage, instead of authentically seeing this call, you know? and so I think that the challenge that I have is, instead of just getting me, what are you doing when you encounter all these other female people who are in ministry? right, and so that's the challenge that we have as women in ministry as well. It's not just the men. Honestly, a lot of the women perpetuate this stereotype.
Speaker 2:I've seen even Facebook statuses from women who would say you know, i had a hard time with the scriptures too. I didn't believe it until my husband set me down and taught me what the word says about women in ministry, and I was like, oh really, your husband taught you that you had to be You know, and I have to try so hard not to be sarcastic.
Speaker 2:It's very difficult, especially when people you know maybe aren't learned in a particular area, and so I'm like you're bringing this English translation to me to defend, while I'm not, you know, called to this. Yet I have a degree in understanding context.
Speaker 2:I have this mug that says don't compare your Google search with my theology degree. Oh why? But I think that's another challenge too. Like women have to also learn how to stick together and support one another. So even with me being in ministry, one of the things I'll say my husband even encouraged me with is there are going to be some opportunities that you say no to that gives way to another woman in ministry, and so if I can't do something, i think it's my duty and responsibility to bring somebody up with me and not just say, oh, if I can't do it, it can't be done.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, this is good You know. And another thing that you know just in seeing your husband and your child, it's like what's so cool is that you are trailblazing in a lot of spaces, even that you brought up the someone coming at you and there's this woman telling you are you reading the things? like, oh, my husband had to sit me down and talk. You and your husband have such a really cool relationship.
Speaker 1:As I've watched from afar again, you're the senior pastor of his church And for those of you who don't know, if we were to kind of formulate it into some type of organizational structure outside of the church, you'd be essentially the CEO of a company And you now are in this lead role and your husband is a supporting role And he's okay with it. I have a story about that. I mean, tell me more.
Speaker 2:So, honestly, Caleb and I met in my undergrad program my senior year and, long story short, he said, hey, maybe I should come intern at your dad's church. And I jumped on it because I always had a crush on him.
Speaker 1:I was like, let's go.
Speaker 2:Biblically you're trained like the woman is not supposed to pursue the man, And so I'm like, okay, I won't pursue him, but I'll make myself available.
Speaker 2:So, he comes to intern at my father's church, never left. We're married. There's a whole lot in between then, but when we were dating I remember being really nervous and scared because I had dated someone prior to Caleb and we both were majoring in ministry at the same school. And I remember him saying you know, i think I'll just marry you and take over your father's church and make you my first lady, cause if it don't shine, it ain't mine right. Trying to like put me into the stereotype of the first lady with the hats and the bling and all of that kind of stuff. And I remember after that I broke up with him on my birthday. It was a great birthday present, but I just remember that. And so I think that was a little traumatic for me because honestly, if we're gonna be really frank, a lot of women wrestle with. I have to choose between a call and a mate. There are a lot of people that don't get both. I know of stories of women whom have been engaged and right before they were getting ready to get married, they say, hey, you're either gonna choose me or you're gonna choose the ministry. And there were women who felt such a strong call to say, hey, i'm gonna choose the ministry. So I remember telling Caleb hey, you know, i really like you, i really want this to work out, but I wanna let you know before we get serious I'm called to be a senior pastor. And he shocked me because at the time he was a Christian rapper and he said well, you're getting the short end of the stick, i'm good for it. And so after we got married, he helped me serve in youth ministry. So I was a youth pastor, we both became assistant pastors together And then there was this part in time where the transition was starting to happen And we thought we would be co-pastors.
Speaker 2:And I remember we were sitting there one day and we were getting ready to do some website updates And Caleb looks at me and he says well, actually, i say to him first, i said I'm gonna be honest with you, i'm hiding behind you. I said so, this co-pastor thing, i feel like I could use it to my advantage, so if something becomes too hard, i can say oh, go, ask my husband. Right, push it off on him. And I said I'm hiding behind you. And he looked me in the face and he said Leslie, he said you were going to be the pastor, whether you married me or not, and he said I feel called by the Lord to support you in whatever way that you need. So he said you're going to be the senior pastor and I'm going to be your assistant pastor and whatever you need for me, i'm going to be there.
Speaker 2:And it has felt so liberating, affirming and encouraging. I mean to the point where, if we're out, if people say, oh hey, pastor Caleb, hey, lady MacLinden, he'll go, oh no, she's the senior pastor. Like I don't even have to correct anything, he literally will tell them this is my wife, this is the pastor. So you need to speak to her. And I'm just so graced that God would allow me to marry someone who really just values my call. It supports me, cares more about me as a person instead of like this image that we can provide to the world, so I'm grateful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you guys, honestly, i'm honored to be sitting with you. I think that you guys are really trailblazing spaces Again in the 757 and then beyond of what it can look like, because we always are looking to figure out how to put people in boxes And it usually is like, well, that's not what I do, i don't want to do that. And you guys, i've watched y'all just y'all live it out very well. So I want to appreciate you for that.
Speaker 1:But another part of this idea of you trailblazing is that you actually come and you said it yourself that you come from a long line of ministry. So I'm thinking of again you've inherited a lot. You've inherited culture, you've inherited church, you've inherited leadership. So, yes, you've got Dr Leslie McLendon, who's got her own space that she's operating in, but you've also got parents and generations that came that are also. They were also doing great things. So tell me how you navigate some of that as you are pushing forward, like in terms of innovating and things like that. But now you're in a space where you're like, okay, how do I honor some of this tradition And the legacy That's?
Speaker 2:a great question. I think it takes a special grace and knowing how to properly value what's been invested in you. If anyone knows anything about my ministry, it's that it's rooted in honor, and while I have changed things, i still have the DNA of my predecessors, right? And so while the message hasn't changed, the method has. I think about it like an iPhone on the very first one, right? The very first iPhone, it had a camera, you could take pictures, you could send text messages and you could listen to music, and so take that versus the current iPhone model, right? If I said, hey, do you want generation one of the iPhone or do you want the current one, you're picking the current one all day, and so that's basically what I'm doing. I'm not getting away from who it is that we're called to be. I'm just renovating and updating and changing things.
Speaker 2:And for starters too, i think that there's a difference between tradition and traditionalism, right? So when you think about tradition, tradition says this is what we've always done, or this is what we've done and it's fine, we like it like that, it works like that. But traditionalism says this is what we've always done and this is the only way that God can move. And I think tradition is fine, but when we become traditionalist then it's a problem. So I'm very careful to uphold and renovate tradition without becoming a traditionalist, and I do that first by understanding the values and the principles that underpin my tradition and my legacy.
Speaker 2:So these are things like faith, family, love you know it, yep generosity, collaboration, integrity and things of that nature. So, knowing that one of the things people are known for traditionally, we'll get into some church things. It's going to church every Sunday, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, when COVID hit and to this day, i pushed a boundary and I implemented what's known as Salah Sundays, and so Salah Sunday is the fourth Sunday of every month. We record virtually, but we don't have in-person service.
Speaker 1:You. I'm like almost getting anxiety here because again, organizationally, how does this work? But go ahead, keep going. Exactly.
Speaker 2:And it was scary.
Speaker 2:I think we'll get into more of these questions later, but leaders have to be willing to stand alone and be misunderstood, they have to be willing to take risks, and one of the things that I noticed was people need time to spend with their families, even preachers, right.
Speaker 2:So I think about when I took over from my father and mother. They had been in ministry for 30 years, never had a sabbatical, never had a break. As a matter of fact, when I inherited the church or when I received it, this was just a couple of months after my grandma passed away And I literally told my parents you have not grieved any of these other deaths that happened, and my sisters and I made them go away for a month, and that's when we kind of stepped up in leadership, and so we implemented what's called Say La Sunday, and it's really an opportunity for you to rest, reflect, take Sabbath and spend some time with your family and your friends at home or be in the community. So that was hard, because leaders were coming to me like Doc, you're crazy. And they're like what about that offering, though?
Speaker 2:And let's be honest, i see it as a seed, because offering was down And I don't know what it is about. People feel like if I'm in person, i'm gonna give. If I'm online I'm not, and that was really scary, but for me it was like I feel that this is where the Lord is leading us. And for me, too, it's like, okay, we have to model to the congregation that this is what we believe. And so for Sayla Sunday, you're not gonna see me every fourth Sunday preaching somewhere else, because if I'm saying, hey, spend some time with your family and friends, we're all doing that. So I'm gonna post me having brunch with Caleb and Jackson.
Speaker 2:I might be out of town, and that was my thing, that I said y'all go on vacation whenever you want to. I'm gonna go out of town too. Come on, um. So yeah, we model what we believe in, but I also think that balance comes from implementing change in a gradual and a thoughtful way. So when I first became senior pastor, i was very careful not to change everything immediately, and I think sometimes, as leaders, when we're young, at our immaturity, we have all this zeal and passion, but maybe not a lot of wisdom, and we want to change everything in the first 30 days instead of sit and observe and listen and hear people's stories and have meals and meetings And so that's something that that I was committed to doing is not changing everything immediately, but hearing people out and sitting still.
Speaker 1:Tell me Leslie, about a time. So you know we laugh about it kind of in this area. We got this saying some of the folks I hang out with is like nah, that's I, i, i like. there's this moment where you're with your kids or you're with people that you love and you like and they do something that goes a little bit over the line And you're like I, don't, don't, do that. Give me one of those moments where somebody, a part of your leadership, a part of the team, had to say hey, doc, i, i like what you doing.
Speaker 2:Hmm, That is a good question. Oh, let's see, i don't know. I think I think for me, um, because I'm such a visionary leader, um, i don't know if that comes off as impulsive to some people So I'm ready to take a risk immediately, like I'm ready to jump, so we'll be in service, and on Sunday I get this idea and I'm like hey, everybody, we're going to be doing this this Wednesday. And I'm looking at the executive team My chat is going crazy on my computer, like what did you just say? Like what is going on? I'm like well, i got this idea. What did you think about it logistically? Well, no, i didn't do that. And so I think for me it's sometimes getting that excitement, as a leader in ministry of God gave me this vision, and not sitting on it or praying for it, but sometimes just saying things out of my mouth really, really quickly, and they're like don't do that, stop it. But I've gotten better, i've got a lot better at it.
Speaker 1:So walk me through, because this is this is fascinating to me How again, you set up the stage where you are a female leader in this senior role. but not only that you're young and you know you're talking about leading folks who are times twice your age. Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:And some of them remind me.
Speaker 1:Right, they remind me Some of them because of the journey of the church you've been in. Some of them probably change your diapers. Oh, they remind me, so tell me more about that. How have you navigated some of that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, i think one of the challenges of being a family ministry is familiarity, right, and that can be really difficult to break, especially not only in the community, but outside of the community as well, because you wrestle with this whole idea of nepotism, right? Oh, your daddy just gave you your church, blah, blah, blah. And I want to fight, sometimes, like you know, verbally, but I've learned be still, god will fight your battles for you. And it's been really difficult because I tell people sometimes like every now and then, i'll engage in a little fight And I'm like, if you take my CV or my resume, i can apply for another church, you know, and get that role. But people don't like to consider that. They like to just say, oh, no, this was handed to you. And people will say things like, oh, it's so difficult. Like, you know, you're my niece or you're just like a granddaughter to me, And so sometimes things were more like a suggestion than they were like no, this is a directive, this is your pastor And, honestly, here's one of those things that maybe not my leadership well, my leadership team did do a little bit, but in 2022, our vision was that we would be rooted and relevant, and so I went through this sermon series in February called The Purge, and I talked about getting in and how we could do more with less.
Speaker 2:And when I tell you, people started leaving left and right. Well, you invited them to. Oh man, that's what I should have said for your moment. My team came up to me and said for 2023, you got to seek the Lord for a different word.
Speaker 1:Let's not do that purge again.
Speaker 2:Right, but it was crazy. It was like the Lord was just weeding people out left and right, and one of the things that you have to learn as a leader right, is that we and tears grew at the same time and you can't mess with them. You just leave them alone And eventually they take care of themselves. And so, during that time of 2022, all the people who were like, oh, bishop just gave you the church, oh, that's just his daughter, oh, this blah, blah, blah They started falling off. Either they started falling off or either the Holy Spirit just started doing some serious surgery on their hearts.
Speaker 2:I remember vividly one lady came up to me when I was in my 20s and she said I'm sorry, i love you as a person, but I can never sit under a female pastor. It's just not going to happen. She was like so I don't know when we make this transition. Well, it's going to go down, but Bishop is always going to be my Bishop. Wow, to this day. I told her. I said, ok, ok, to this day, one of my biggest supporters ever, sending a link to everybody. You got to come. I know you think she's young. I'm telling you just watch the YouTube video.
Speaker 2:I never leave the church without being fed And a lot of these things, like God just started to take care of them for me. And then I think for me the challenge was have you ever put yourself in my shoes? like, just imagine someone constantly talking about your daughter and saying, um, i don't, ever, i don't want anybody to sit under my daughter or listen to my daughter. We never do that. So if someone was constantly criticizing and nagging your family, you would be really upset or you would feel some kind of way, and so I think that the best thing for me is just having people around me and leadership who really believe in me, who believe in the vision to move forward, and God has really just taken care of a lot of the rest of it.
Speaker 1:Amen. So how do you speak to the person or some of the folks who are probably walking into spaces similar than yours or on the journey of? Hey, I'm trying to step into this realm, this new phase of my life, of my leadership, whatever it is, And I'm not quite sure how to be authentic in my role, how to be authentic in what's happened. Give me more on that. How do you, how do you help people find their authentic voice?
Speaker 2:Yeah, i think there are several things that you can do for that. First, i think it's important to embrace your unique strength and perspective. Every leader has something to offer. Whether you believe it or not, everybody has something that they bring to the table. One of the things that really freed me was when people invite you, they invite you for you. If they wanted somebody else, they would get somebody else. I'm assuming you invited me to this podcast because you said there's a unique perspective that I want you to share. If I wanted a different perspective, i'd invite someone else, and that's always what I tell people. People will be in Facebook Hey, i'm preaching somewhere and I'm so nervous I don't. I don't know what I'm going to do, what should I do? And I say, well, who did they invite? Well, they invited me. Then bring you. And I think that that's something that's been really helpful.
Speaker 2:And then another thing honestly, you have to learn how to practice regularly being kind to yourself. Leadership will beat you up. It is tough, it is difficult, and so I think, as a leader, you have to practice self compassion, knowing that it takes time, energy and effort, and that is also challenging, right? So, when you spend time in self reflection, because that's how you really figure out who you are. You have to sit with yourself What do I like, what do I not like? And when you do that, you'll often find the things that you like or dislike about yourself can be challenging. And what do you do when you find those areas that you don't quite like? you have to practice self compassion When things don't go as planned.
Speaker 2:A big part of that is leadership. We talked about that a little bit before we started this podcast. We were trying to get these technicalities up and running right. That's a part of leadership that everything doesn't flow perfectly or go back as planned. You also have to have core values. These are the guiding principles that drive your actions and decisions. When I know my core values, i get clarity and focus on what's important to me. So when people invite me for certain events, if it doesn't line up with who and what I am, i don't accept it right. If, for some crazy reason, i get an invitation from the Southern Baptist Conference, does this line up with my values? I don't know if this is an evangelistic thing. I remember one time one guy invited me to a panel and he said we're doing a panel for people in ministry and I want you to defend why you believe God called women in ministry. So I'm not taking that engagement. Why sis Don't sis me first of all? That's another thing we need to talk about is cis culture. I hate it.
Speaker 1:So it's funny not to cut you off, but it's so. No, you're good That the idea of cis culture? I've heard It's horrible. Folks don't like being called auntie and things like that. Tell me more about what your gripe is and explain it for the folks who have no idea what cis culture is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, i think for me, cis culture gives off this element of familiarity that you don't have or you've not earned, And so for people coming in that I've never met, it's like, okay, i was left on red, but when I started getting any kind of notoriety whatsoever, all of a sudden I'm cis. What changed, what happened? And I remember someone corrected me right, because I believe in being authentic, you should tell on yourself in some situations. I remember one time I reached out to a girl and I was like hey, sis, and she called me out on it And she was like hey, honestly, i had a sister who was very close to me, who passed away, and I take that term very seriously.
Speaker 2:So if we're not like in relationship like that, i'm going to ask if you refrain from using that term. And so I think that's another part of leadership Who can check you? Who are you accountable to? And from that day on, i'm very careful when I use that term. I don't want to use it flippantly, because words have meanings, and so when you say cis, like, what exactly is a sister? Is this somebody whom I can call and they'll actually pick up the phone? Or is this just a text that says, oh well, i don't know what else to say, so this just sounds cool Wow.
Speaker 1:Wow, So you were mentioning before I interrupted you you were talking about your core values. You were walking people through authenticity. Anything else that you wanted to add towards that?
Speaker 2:I think too. I would add feedback culture. This is a valuable tool for self-improvement, but I think when it comes to feedback culture, we have to ask ourselves who is a credible person who can give us constructive criticism. And one of the things that I think hurt me in my early past or it was listening to the voices and the critics of people who had never built anything, and so I think a lot of times we put a lot of stake in oh, this person's giving me these comments And it's like yeah yeah, well, look at this person's track record.
Speaker 2:What have they built? You know? I remember coming up early on to that people used to say, oh, all you do is preach, that's easy, anybody could do that. I put this person up one time to moderate. did not go over well And I'm like that's just moving the service along. Right, that's just saying words. All you gotta do is get up there and say words.
Speaker 2:All you gotta do is write, but it's really an art to it, and so I had to really learn how to put people in their respective places. Not being disrespectful at all, but I'm not going to allow you to critique me without having a level of credibility. And another thing that I've learned is most successful people are not talking about people who do not have the same level of success as them. I've never heard a Bishop Jake's talking about somebody who talks about other pastors and leaders all the time. No, bishop Jake's is what is my vision? I'm trying to build homes for people who lack housing and do other things like that, and so that's when I learned okay, if I'm a giraffe, i don't have time to see. What is this, you know dog or turtle or whatever at my feet. No, i'm looking up.
Speaker 1:Have other things to do. That's good, That's so good. You, Leslie, you have this gift where you some of it you've inherited, some of it is a gift where you've had to. Now, even in talking with you, you've had to navigate multiple generations. One time You've talked about cis culture, but you also got somebody who could be an auntie, and they telling you about this. And how do you, how do you know? and again, it's not even just that, but the spaces where you have to occupy and operate.
Speaker 1:You're also an adjunct professor, So you're navigating generations. Tell me more about that. How do you? is there something that you need to put on? Is there something you need to take off? How do you communicate across generations?
Speaker 2:I think the biggest thing is learning that generation's language. Sometimes you accept things, sometimes you confront things Like one of the things that I might have to deal with with an older generation is I have to tell people don't call me sweetheart you know.
Speaker 1:So you got a list of things. No, sis no sweetheart. It's horrible. I'm Dr MacLennan.
Speaker 2:Right, and I even tell people that if you can't call me pastor, you can call me doctor. I've even had to say things like to people I'm not your secretary, you can take your own notes, because, right, isn't that a stereotype of oh well, i'm just not good at notes with me either, so find somebody else. But we love to say that we are a multi-generational church or multi-generational community, and on any given Sunday, we can have up to six generations represented. We might have a nine month old all the way up to a 90 year old, and I love it.
Speaker 2:But I think some of the common challenges, not just in the church but in culture, is millennials versus boomers. You have this whole debate And you're smacked in the middle. Oh my gosh. You know, in my bio, one of the things that I say is Leslie seeks to build bridges and is passionate about speaking to people from their mid-20s to mid-life crisis, because it's in everything in between. But you might hear things like millennials don't want God or boomers don't want change and hate young people. Older folks think that younger folks are lazy. Younger folks think that older folks are loyal to an idea that doesn't even suit them anymore, and so they might say something like why are you staying at that job? out of loyalty? You don't get anything out of it. But an older generation might say no, when we give someone our word, we stick with it, even if it's hurting us. And so the older generations might prefer face-to-face communication, while the younger prefers digital.
Speaker 2:And I think we've been at war for some time, not just in church but as a culture, and stereotyping and biases has done more harm than good. There are some people, even who I talk to now, who say I was born in the wrong generation. I wish I was born in your generation. Or there are some younger people who say I don't subscribe to how the millennial stereotype is. I should have been born as Gen X or I should have been born as whatever.
Speaker 2:But in our community, i think it's important to create an environment where people feel respected and valued, regardless of their age or background, And so one of our core values is that we're better together, and so, for me, the solution is to approach leadership with empathy, with open-mindedness and respect, and then learning to speak the language of multiple generations. I can't talk to someone who is 89 the same way I may talk to someone who's 19. It's completely different, and so, for me, i almost have to be this cultural or sociological anthropologist and figure out okay, what is it that you need? You know, sister Shirley might need a thank you card mailed to her, whereas Benjamin, hey, just send me a text. Hey, thanks, thanks, man, i appreciate this. And so I have to speak multiple languages and understanding that there's a distinct difference in communication style, work ethic, technology and innovation, and be a committed student to knowing that my way is not the only way.
Speaker 1:So you bring up just a lot of good things because you definitely have your fingers on the pulse in terms of you again, from the nine month old to the 90 year old. What do you find? what are you finding are some of the challenges of this current generation And this current generation of leaders, emerging leaders? what do you find are some of the unique challenges that they're walking into? The person who's you know in, particularly the person who's saying you know what, i'm just getting a crack at leadership in some space. What are the challenges that they're facing? What are they walking into? What have you observed?
Speaker 2:Yeah, i think there are a ton of challenges that are facing leaders today. For one, the increasingly complex global and theological changes. When I was growing up maybe before I was growing up America was known as a Christian nation. Now we're post-Christian, now we wanna be spiritual, not religious. Then there are some people who are like I don't want the spirit, i don't want religion, i'm nothing. And it's like how do you navigate that?
Speaker 2:The other thing is, with the global changes, things ranging from climate change to economic inequality What do we do with that? And so that was difficult too in leadership. Let's take, for instance, someone who is in ministry. When you're groomed to say, hey, help people, love people, preach the word, but then when I'm outside of my ministerial context, i can't talk to people who are just living life, because I don't know about global warming, i don't know about the different things that are going on in politics. And so I think a challenge of leaders is we have to be well informed. You can't just say, oh, jesus will work it out. Well, maybe, but you gotta give Jesus something to work with. That's right, right. I think another challenge is rapid technological changes. It feels like as soon as you master one algorithm and you're like yes, i've got the hang of this. It switches.
Speaker 1:Immediately.
Speaker 2:And it's like what happened. I just got Instagram on lock and I cracked the code And it feels like once you crack the code, they change the code.
Speaker 1:They change it.
Speaker 2:And it's very difficult to keep up with. I know I said you have to speak to multiple generations, but I'm over here like I refuse to get a TikTok. I don't want it.
Speaker 1:Same, i'm still struggling with it. I'm like I can't do it.
Speaker 2:I mean power, somebody else to do it. But here's one that I think really leaders struggle with, and that is the growing demands for ethical leadership. Wow, tell me more. Perhaps it's always been this way, but with the rise of social media, we have seen a plethora of corporate, political and religious scandals and corruption, and now it almost feels like you're a unicorn if you can go through ministry and not, or business or whatever, and not have this huge scandal.
Speaker 2:It's very difficult, like it's hard, to find leaders who really have integrity. A lot of us can walk a good talk, mask it, we know the right words to say and everything like that. Everything is perfect in our bubble, but social media, i mean, it really pulls the covers off of some people, and so my question would be can you lead responsibly, can you be committed to ethical and responsible behavior as a leader? But people aren't asking that question anymore. Right It's. can you meet the books? Can you raise an offering? Can you make sure that our organization is seen?
Speaker 2:for millions of people, integrity is like at the bottom of the list. It's always can you do XYZ? What are these? What's the output? But we're very rarely asking what is the input? How are you caring for your family? How are you caring for yourself? How are you prioritizing certain things? And so I think that's one of the biggest challenges is ethical leadership, and I think, in order to overcome these things, it's going to require adaptability, resilience, creativity, integrity and then collaboration. So my hope would be that, with leaders being authentic, we would have this element of vulnerability. We think vulnerability means on week, i can't share my emotions because for so long we were taught leaders.
Speaker 2:You cry in the back, but when you come out there, you better be guarded. Put that armor on. They don't need to see you sweat, they don't need to see you bleed. But leaders do bleed. And so I think, when I talk about vulnerability, what would it look like if you admitted you know what? I don't know a lot of this stuff. When I'm being invited to certain spaces, i'm not sure. Let me ask someone who is more credible than I am, And I think that takes a lot of humility as well. As a leader, i remember in the height of the pandemic, when we were going through racial unrest, people were calling on me because I'm black, and I was like you know what? I have some friends who have been doing this justice work longer than I have.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we got it yeah.
Speaker 2:Right, don't just call on me. Let me let you talk to my boys such and such. Hey come talk to my friend who does this for a while. Like, what would it look like if, as leaders, we're not trying to take on the burden and saying, oh, we have to know the answers to everything, but here's someone who does, and I want to partner with them so you can get the best possible answer that you can.
Speaker 1:Man, you have so many nuggets. I just I do. I almost feel like I'm sitting here being coached as a leader And I'm like I'm going to listen to this over and over, because the wisdom that you bring to situations, the authenticity, the integrity you bring to situations And I love you said it earlier but it's not just because someone gave you a church, but based on your resume, based on your work like not even just your schooling, but your work you've actually, you could actually, you do you hold your own And so I'm again always honored to be in your presence. But another question I have for you just a couple questions then we'll get out of here is you wore it here. You say, hey, my hair wasn't done So I had to put this hat on.
Speaker 1:You got your shirt on. Tell me about this historic brand, tell me more about it, what the significance is behind it, what drew you to, even because you're folks don't know, but you're not just a pastor Like. You're an entrepreneur, you, you, you are again, you're an adjunct professor And I don't want to. I'm sure I want to make sure that people get an idea of your resume, but tell people about more, about what you're doing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so historic was founded in December of 2020, but we made it official. We're a nonprofit now, like we have nonprofit status, but it's really rooted in honor, integrity and legacy. And when I thought about historic, i thought about the mission and vision of it really is to help women, female pastors and aspiring leaders to discover, recover or refine their voices, because I feel like everybody's in one of those stages, right, i don't know, my voice helped me find it. I had a voice, but I lost it. Helped me get it back? Or I have this voice, but helped me get better, and that's where it came from. And also, when I thought about her story, i asked the question. You know, we'd have a lot clearer picture of the Bible if it was the gospel according to Jane instead of John.
Speaker 2:Whoa, whoa Hold up, sis, i know.
Speaker 1:I'm playing like you, that's so. give me more.
Speaker 2:That's so, and so you know a lot of women's voices. They were present in the Bible but maybe weren't talked about actively, and maybe it was because they wanted to continue a patriarchal society. I don't know, but Jesus had female disciples. I mean, we would not have the gospel if it were not for women. Right, he is not here, he has risen, just as he's in, yeah. And so I said, man, what would it look like if we? I know we've got Matthew, mark, luke and John, but what if we have the book of Mary Magdalene and we could hear her story? What if we could hear her perspective, what it was like to be with Jesus, how he cared for women, how he approached them with kindness and care? One of the things that I'm committed to is helping people to see her side of the story.
Speaker 2:I think about the woman at the well often and I love to preach this text Is that a lot of people say oh, you know, hide your husbands because she ain't safe, don't go by the woman at the well. But I think about it. I said, if we really are committed to doing the work, let's think about her story really quickly When Jesus comes to her, and we love, as evangelicals to preach this. Yeah, jesus told her you don't have one husband, you have five. And we're like so it's not safe. She was clearly a lady of the night. But when you really dig deeply and do some theological study, think about this In that culture and context.
Speaker 2:A woman could not divorce a man, right? So when you think about this, this woman was put away five times, literally, she was served paper. She didn't start it. And so we're over here talking about hide your husbands. Oh, like, yeah, they served her papers. It could have been that she was married to a brother, because that's what they did back then. Hey, if I passed away, go to brother. It could have been that her husband went off to war, got killed or something like that. What if she couldn't have kids and she dealt with fertility issues? People got put away for that. And so when you think about that, it wasn't that she was at the well necessarily because she was despised. No, she was probably depressed, and we never preach it from that angle before. And so when I say her story, like, what would it look like if we got to see another side of the story? I just think we would have a fuller picture of the gospel.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's so brilliant. So tell me about some of the work that you guys are doing, because this is such a phenomenal perspective, Absolutely. I mean, obviously I'm a little biased. I've got three daughters, yes, and I've been married for about 14 years now in June But I've always been around women all my life. I've got two sisters. My wife has five sisters. So tell me more, though, about this historic. What are you guys doing in your local community? globally, what are you into?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we just launched and I haven't launched the flyer yet but on July 14th we're going to launch the public and we're going to have our first historic night And it's going to be amazing, like literally I've already been in talks like the band is going to be female, the production team is going to be female, like the speakers, the leaders, everything is going to be okay.
Speaker 2:Women come and use your gifts And the beautiful thing about it is I get to partner with Caleb and we're going to have this thing called the men and men and the men are going to serve, and so they're going to be ushers and readers and just showing, hey, we're here as your brother, not to like try to get your number or anything like that, but to let you know like I'm here with you, and so they are going to have these shirts that says I'm with her, like letting you know you have an army of brothers that support you, that see you, that are in your corner, that aren't trying to like sleep with you or anything like that, but we're here to just be here with you on the journey, and so I think that's the biggest thing too is for people to know that I'm not out here starting this like feminist movement right, and so that can be a fear that, oh, as soon as you label something with her, that means that you hate men Absolutely not, like I'm an advocate for men and women, but this is just for people who realize that men are not the only ones who can make bold moves, and so historic is for those women and the men that support them.
Speaker 2:And out of that, eventually we're going to have coaching programs, mentorship, availability, and so for me, just bringing in how I said, historic was also like rooted in legacy and honor. For me, it's very important to create a space where the mothers, the mentors and the mentees can gather, and so I feel like all the women's conferences I went to it was either okay, this feels like it's all for 50 and up, or this feels like it's just for the young people. I want to create a space where, when you leave a historic gathering, conference or historic night, it's like I walked out here and I've been trying to pour into somebody all my life. I found somebody that I can mentor, or I've come in here and I didn't have anybody to talk to. I found somebody who I can look up to, and so it's really a place where, when I come in, i might leave.
Speaker 1:I might come empty, but I'm leaving full, this is good, i feel like we have so much more content, but I'll make sure we land the plane. As you think about your leadership, what you've navigated, what you've been through and the folks that are up to bat next, what advice can you give to these up-and-coming men, up-and-coming leaders, whether they're male, female, whatever space of life? again, you've been able to navigate very different spaces. What is the advice that you'd give for the up-and-coming leader?
Speaker 2:I would say and I think Andy Stanley says this and I'm going to steal it he says don't forsake what's unique to you for what someone else can do. And a lot of times we're constantly looking at oh, this person did it this way, i'm going to try to do that, and one up it. So what is the dream or desire that's placed in your heart? and go and live that out Again. You find that by embracing your unique strengths and perspectives, knowing that you have something to offer, practicing self-compassion, understanding that as a leader, you will fail, and it's okay. Fail often, but fail differently each time.
Speaker 2:And so there's a Chinese proverb that says fall down seven times, stand up eight. So leaders have to practice resilience as well. And then I would say seek out mentors and role models. Even though I'm preaching, i'm teaching authenticity. I understand that before you're a voice, you're an echo, and that's okay if you're the right echo. And so we even teach our son Jackson that we're hoping and praying that he's a leader, but we say, in the event that you may not be a leader right now, at least find the right people to follow.
Speaker 1:That's so powerful. See you, don't do this this whole time. Drop these little nuggets. I wish we could unpack that before. You're a voice, you're an echo. Tell me more.
Speaker 2:So you have to find out the right leaders and mentors. It's okay to be a follower, and I think in our culture we're always preaching leadership, leadership, leadership, and everybody has a measure of influence. So you are a leader to some respect, but leaders also follow somebody, and so who are those mentors and advisors that you can seek out and follow? Who are those role models, those people who inspire you to really live authentically, to be yourself? seek out their guidance and support. I remember telling my parents I want to do in three years what took you 30. That's what mentorship does.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Here are all of the lessons without the pain, and so, for me, if I'm going to use wisdom oh okay, you did it that way and that hurt. Okay, i'm going to change it around, i'm going to do something different, and so that's what leadership is, or mentorship is. I'm giving you all of the lessons without the pain, and so seek out mentors and role models and then take a risk, bet on yourself, and I think that's the season that I'm in right now. Sure, there have been times that I was timid, that I was scared. I mean, i'm teaching at Duke right now, i'm teaching at a seminary in Indiana, and when I got some of these syllabus, i was like I don't know.
Speaker 1:Can I really do this?
Speaker 2:But it got to a point that was like just try it, Leslie, Just jump and do it. And I said in 2023, I declare that this was our year to emerge. And I said you know what, If I'm asking you to emerge, I've got to emerge. So y'all going to see me doing something every two months on Facebook.
Speaker 2:Here she goes dropping another flyer Here, she goes teaching another class, like what is going on here. But you have to take a risk, bet on yourself. And so, for me, i figured out like one day, leslie, you have to come to the realization that the same energy you put into celebrating others, what would it look like if you reinvested that in yourself? And for me, i am an achiever, and so I'm always on to the next one. We talked about how I have a terminal degree, but I want another degree, and that's some inner work that I have to deal with. Like what is that, leslie? that's always pushing you to go for the next thing, but at the same time, learning to take a risk.
Speaker 2:Celebrate others, yes, but celebrate yourself as well. And then, lastly, i would say understand that leadership is a journey and not a destination, that it's okay to feel unsure and uncertain at times Because, a matter of fact, it might even be encouraged, because if you're unsure, then that means that you need to depend on the Holy Spirit, who is absolutely sure, who was here before the foundations of the earth was even made. And so I'll close with this, and I'm not a hooper by any means, but if God be for you come on, i feel my head goes up. Then who in the world can be against you?
Speaker 1:This is good. Well, y'all, this is Dr Leslie Francisco McClendon. This is Don't Call Her Sis or Sweetheart. I love that This is so for real, like this episode, i feel like is a game changer, because I'm just thinking about wanting to play this for my daughters For real And I'm about to get emotional thinking about it The idea of them having representation, them seeing what's possible. You have no idea the impact that you're having. You have no idea the influence that I know for you, this is a part of your story. You're just doing what God called you to do, but the generations that you're impacting is beyond what you can imagine.
Speaker 2:Well, can I tell you one thing in regards to that with authenticity? that really helps solidify it for me. I grew up in an era where women wear skirts and long dresses to their calves in the pool pit And I remember wrestling so hard with I grew up, you know, i thought about calling her story the not so girly girl club, but her story hits better.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And I just remember being someone who liked to wear pants and sneakers and I started preaching in them. And I remember one young woman came to me and she said I never knew that you could preach the gospel wearing pants and converse. You have liberated me and let me know that there is hope, there is a future and that I can be in ministry too. And when I tell you, that just did something to my heart, where most people think like, oh, they might think that it's rebellious or they might think that I'm trying to do my own thing or whatever.
Speaker 2:But to know that there's a whole generation out there saying there's a lane for me And I don't have to compromise right, because, yes, i'm wearing pants, but I'm not sinning, i'm not doing anything that's compromising my integrity. But to have people say, wow, i can do that, i can be myself, i can stay in my lane and I have the opportunity to have a spouse, to have children to the Lord, let it happen to have a ministry and to also be an entrepreneur and to go for it, i realize that whatever I do, it's bigger than me. So I'm not just living for Leslie, i'm living for a legacy of people who aren't even here yet.
Speaker 1:Come on, come on, you're doing it well. Thank you, you're doing it well. So how do people get in touch with you? What do you want them to know? Any of those things, last things that you're like hey, here's how you connect with Dr MacLendon.
Speaker 2:Yep, you can go to lesleymaclendoncom That's L-E-S-L-E-Y-M-C-C-L-E-N-D-O-N To find out more information. You'll find out all of my social media places. You can connect to a Bible study that I'm hosting, to get into one of our private groups that we're doing And stay up to date about all the things historic, all the things, leslie, if you wanna check out our church at c3hamptonorg. But yeah, go to lesleymaclendoncom and you'll be able to find everything there.
Speaker 1:Yo, i hope that you guys follow everything she said. Like go check her out for real. I think that. I hope that you've been encouraged by this, you've been blessed by this episode. This, for me, is again I've gotta go back and listen to this over and over. There were so many nuggets, so many. Just a wealth of wisdom. Not just knowledge, but wisdom. So I just wanna encourage you guys, as you're on your journey of becoming a better leader, experiencing your second win, just remind yourself of this episode. Remind yourself of being authentic. I love what Leslie was saying about your core values, like when you know who you are, you also know who you're not. Absolutely So following in that.
Speaker 1:So y'all go ahead. Please share this episode with someone. Like it. If you like it, text it to someone, share it with someone, email it to someone And make sure y'all review it. Please review these episodes, tell us how we're doing, and I would love to have Dr MacLendon back for another episode. We're gonna dive a little deeper This one. This was like just scratching the surface, so appreciate y'all Subscribe to this podcast.
Speaker 1:Nothing less than five stars. That's right. Appreciate y'all, y'all, take care.